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Water Chemistry

This group is for in-depth discussion of pool and spa water chemistry issues at a more technical level suitable to a group for those who are interested.  The emphasis is on matching science and research to real-world observations.

Members: 75
Latest Activity: Feb 12

Discussion Forum

Cyanuric Acid for Indoor Pools? 3 Replies

Started by Howard J Knight. Last reply by Jory Jan 19, 2017.

flocculant 8 Replies

Started by Frank H Dashti. Last reply by Roohollah Akbari Jun 21, 2016.

Phosphates, Phosphate Removers and CuLator™ Metal Remover 57 Replies

Started by Richard A. Falk. Last reply by Richard A. Falk Apr 24, 2013.

Combined Chlorine-what is it exactly? 6 Replies

Started by David Rockwell. Last reply by Richard A. Falk Dec 29, 2012.

The mysterious case of the disappearing CYA 7 Replies

Started by David Rockwell. Last reply by Rick Larson Oct 10, 2012.

Natural Swimming Pools (NSPs) 1 Reply

Started by Richard A. Falk. Last reply by John Pustai Jul 27, 2012.

Enzymes 18 Replies

Started by Richard A. Falk. Last reply by Aaron Heiss Jul 5, 2012.

Oxidation-Reduction Potential (ORP) 6 Replies

Started by Richard A. Falk. Last reply by Richard A. Falk Jun 11, 2012.

Breakpoint Chlorination 4 Replies

Started by Richard A. Falk. Last reply by Richard A. Falk May 29, 2012.

CYA, TA, and the Langelier Index 1 Reply

Started by David Rockwell. Last reply by Richard A. Falk Feb 12, 2012.

SWG and borates 5 Replies

Started by Jeremy Hine. Last reply by Richard A. Falk Dec 4, 2011.

Air Quality Above Pool/Spa Water 3 Replies

Started by Richard A. Falk. Last reply by Richard A. Falk Nov 17, 2011.

Biofilms 28 Replies

Started by Richard A. Falk. Last reply by Richard A. Falk Jul 12, 2011.

Algae 3 Replies

Started by Richard A. Falk. Last reply by Richard A. Falk Jun 9, 2011.

Chlorine Dioxide 2 Replies

Started by Richard A. Falk. Last reply by Richard A. Falk Apr 8, 2011.

Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) 6 Replies

Started by Richard A. Falk. Last reply by Richard A. Falk Mar 19, 2011.

Active Chlorine Level and Disinfection By-Products (DBPs) 14 Replies

Started by Richard A. Falk. Last reply by Richard A. Falk Mar 10, 2011.

Lowering Total Alkalinity (TA) 5 Replies

Started by Richard A. Falk. Last reply by Richard A. Falk Feb 23, 2011.

Total Alkalinity (TA) and pH Effects 1 Reply

Started by Richard A. Falk. Last reply by Richard A. Falk Feb 21, 2011.

Comment Wall

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Comment by Howard Dryden on August 10, 2011 at 10:44am

Hi Richard,

 

A new category could be air quality for discussion.

 

I am trying to find information relating to cyanogen chloride concentration in  pool water and in the air above the surface of the water.

Comment by Richard A. Falk on June 8, 2011 at 12:38am
I finally got around to adding info the the Algae discussion.
Comment by Richard A. Falk on April 8, 2011 at 11:30am
Done.  It'll take a while to fill in details and get to key takeaways on the enzymes, chlorine dioxide, and algae discussions, but at least there are separate places for such topics now.
Comment by Lester Eric Brehm on April 8, 2011 at 10:16am
Richard, How about a separate thread for algae itself ?
Comment by Richard A. Falk on April 6, 2011 at 12:01am
Unlike CYA, there's no DMH on-site test that I know of.  I also incorrectly wrote that the DMH limit was 100 ppm when it's really 200 ppm.  See several sources for this in this post.
Comment by Lester Eric Brehm on April 5, 2011 at 9:59pm

Is there a on site test for DMH or is this something that must be done in a lab.

Comment by Richard A. Falk on April 5, 2011 at 7:42pm

There's not nearly the same amount of science on bromine's disinfection capability as there is regarding chlorine.  Bromine passed EPA DIS/TSS-12, but that is just two bacterial pathogens (there are some studies for other bacteria, viruses, and protozoan oocysts).  I know that if bromine tabs are used that the buildup of DMH can be like a buildup of CYA in reducing bromine's effectiveness.  Most standards limit DMH to 100 ppm.  However, with the spa water changed every 2 weeks, I doubt that DMH has built up that much, even if tabs were used, since it doesn't sound like the spa is that heavily used.

 

The main thing with bromine is that it's disinfection by-products are more worrisome than chlorine's.  The brominated THMs have a higher cancer risk at low concentrations compared to chloroform.

Comment by David Rockwell on April 5, 2011 at 9:15am
I'm sorry if I muddied the waters so to speak. My question specifically as related to that post is if a powerful oxidizer treatment or "boilout" as mentioned there, would be a resonable or maybe better alternative to enzymes, or possibly if that should be done prior to using enzymes, as enzymes can be destroyed by shocking. It is starting to look to me as if enzymes are better used as a preventative rather than a corrective measure.
Comment by Al Neumann on April 5, 2011 at 8:24am

Bromine explains a lot. There are very few pools here in Wisconsin that still use bromine, and the primary reason is for them switching back to chlorine is because of chronic failed bacteria tests. The Heatlh Dept inspectors are the ones that are spearheaded getting facilities off of bromine, as the most issues with failed tests were on bromine, and they saw a connection. Changing back to chlorine solved most issues. Bromine looks good on paper, but in the field has issues. I'm sure Richard will get into the details.

I was a little confused by David's link on Biofilms from the PPOA, as I was the one who initiated the link, but I thought that was on a discussion of biofilms, and not specifically enzymes. I see the relevance, but again, biofilm wasn't really part of the discussion on whether or not enzymes were living things.

 

Comment by Ann Klute on April 5, 2011 at 8:05am

Sorry about that.  The reference was due to the link made by David from the ppoa.  In that article it mentioned how bio-films could cause a failure in your water samples. 

     I do hope that samples are being taken correctly.  I know I shouldn't assume that but I am at this point.  They are using bromine.  He did purchase a new filter cartridge.  The spa is drained and cleaned every two weeks.  This is not at a hotel but a condo association with very little use compared to a hotel anyway.

 

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