We operate a small commercial pool management business, and are looking for a "dependable" system to replace liquid chlorine. The CAT system we have found to be flawless. Could someone tell Pat Sweeney to build a chlorine generation system?Our problem is the chemicals getting to the pool. We have converted some of our pools to salt but are encountering more problems with the systems, than it is worth. Any suggestions?
Well on CAT and Pat's behalf I would like to say Thank You.
If the problem you are running into is that the salt chlorine systems are not able to keep up or the power modules burning up prematurely, I have a few suggestions, which our colleagues above seem to agree with me on.
Most salt chlorine generator manufactures seem to follow similar criteria when sizing a salt chlorine system, though the sales representatives sometimes take a different approach. What I mean by this is - that the larger the cell or the more cells that are "actually" required to keep up with the demand in a body of water are not always what are installed because of the all mighty dollar. It has been my experience that salt systems tend to be undersized where in reality we should be over sizing them. To make the initial investment of a salt system more attractive sometimes – some (Not All) sales representatives will sell on the size of the body of water instead of the demand that the pool/spa may have. With that being said we end up with an undersized salt system which cannot keep up with the demand and is forced to work harder therefore burning up cells or power modules earlier than they should. Here are some possible suggestions:
1. Encourage your facilities to over size there salt systems.
2. Keep the maximum amount of salt in the pool that is suggested by a manufacturer (more salt will give you more chlorine production). But please be careful not to put too much in for you could damage your pool and pool accessories.
3. Make sure that if you are using a salt chlorine system that you are careful of your CYA levels. Why do most salt chlorine manufactures suggest using higher amounts of CyA? In Layman’s terms - the more CyA in the water in an outdoor pool the more likely the salt chlorine generators is to keep up with chlorine demand. When using sodium hypochlorite or calcium hypochlorite you only notice the amount of chlorine being used not how hard the chlorine pump or solenoid valve is working. Nor does the chemical feed pump or solenoid valve care; they just do what is needed to get the job done. Salt chlorine generators, on the other hand, are only manufactured to produce specific amounts of chlorine per day. Which means, if the system is sized smaller than it should be, then it won’t be able to keep up with chlorine demand? This is especially vital in an outdoor body of water where UV rays are contributing to chlorine loss. So with all of this being said, most salt chlorine manufactures will tell you to add more Cyanuric acid and to keep it at higher levels. This will reduce the amount of chlorine loss due to UV rays so that their systems look as if they are able to keep up with the demand. Now this is not a negative bash on the salt chlorine manufactures, the problem does not lie with their systems it lies with proper sizing of equipment. It is a very difficult task to size a salt chlorine system. When sizing you have to take into consideration the volume of the pool and three variables that are hard to predict; the amount of bather load, salt loss (backwash, splash out, or leaks) and the amount of chlorine loss through UV rays. The problem is that the larger the system the more expensive it becomes to the end-user. With all of this in mind, we must be careful that when salt chlorine systems are sized that they are size accordingly and we do not rely on the use of CyA to help keep up with chlorine demand and we should remember NEVER use CYA in INDOOR POOLS.
4. Using a backup chlorination system (as suggested by Scott Heusser) in conjunction with an automated pH and ORP controller. The CAT 4000 and CAT 5000 controllers are equipped with a second relay, which can be used to control your primary or secondary ORP set points. That being said, you could have an undersized salt system or even a properly sized salt system that in some cases is unable to keep up with demand. and if you had a backup chlorination system the controller will power on either a peristaltic feed pump or open a solenoid valve to allow both systems to be feeding at the same time. This is a great way to inexpensively keep up with chlorine demand.
5. Maintaining a good pH (As Rick Larson Said) – maybe even slightly lower than you would normally maintain it, possibly at 7.4pH or 7.3pH this helps cut down on calcium build up within the cells and also makes for more HOCL.
6. Make sure to clean your salt cells as directed by your salt chlorine generator manufacture.
7. Coupling salt systems with UV is another great solution as stated by Scott Pancake.
Gary if there is anything CAT can do to help besides start manufacturing a salt chlorine system please feel free to give me a call. I hope all is well and good luck!
I am in the midst of dealing with this on a small commercial pool (42,000 gallons), with a residential salt system. Temporarily, we have the salt chlorinator operating at full bore(it doesn't regulate itself just continuous chlorine production), with a chlorinator operating on an as needed basis hooked into the CAT. Originally the pool consultant designed the system with only the salt system, but we ended up adding the chlorine system...I'll keep you posted how this turns out, the salt chlorinator manufacturer's rep was up there last week, they think it may be a bad cell. I'm expecting a report back this week from them.
On the larger commercial projects, we have had incredible results and feedback by incorporating UV systems(Hanovia, Siemens, etc.), in conjunction with chlorine systems.
Or, another way is to use the SCG as your primary chlorination device, then have a supplemental liquid or erosion feeder for those instances where the 40 child birthday party shows up and jumps in the pool. This requires a third relay set 20-50 mV below your SCG setpoint. The third realy requirement may mean you have to move away from CAT, I'm not sure they have a unit with more than 2 relays.
You can also look at commercially sized SCG units. I learned very quickly that when a manufacutrer says a unit is good for 40k gallons they definitely don't mean on a commercial basis.
Another way to look at things could be trying to find the "sweet spot" for your pH. This would involve having total control over where your other chemical levels will be and this can be ascertained by say the Langlier Index.
If you do use a puck feeder with Tri Chlor you stand the chance of driving the CYA so high the chlorine become ineffective and if its an indoor pool or spa you don't want any to begin with. I also think its a lot more difficult to maintain an even PPM reading with a puck feeder, especially in a commercial/public pool. It also might mean using a lot of Soda Ash which really can't be monitored and auto fed. Well I guess it can, but I think its a bit of a messy way to do things.
If you use a Cal Hypo feeder you stand the chance of driving your hardness so high you need to run lower Alk and pH in order to compensate. You should also be shocking with Cal Hypo and depending on use the pH could be wanting to stay quite high. This goes against trying to keep a low pH and Alk in order to offset the constantly climbing Hardness. Use would determine how fast any of that changed though I guess.
Using Liquid Chlorine you know you will be feeding acid and both chemicals can be done automatically, easily and cheaply. You can keep them at any level you want as well as allowing you to control where your hardness will be. By testing and adjusting all the levels over a short period of time you should be able to find a pH level that doesn't require a lot adjustment and keep the Langlier happy.
Of course your fill water will play an important role too. Anyways, just another way to look at it.
I really agree with Ben Tipton. Analyze the problem that you are having with the salt system and adjust them from there. Or, you are going to have to find a Salt system that is compatible with the amount of usage of your commercial pool. We have a consumer who has a commercial pool and it's quite small compared to the overwhelming size of their resort. They are using an Aqua-Rite Goldline Chlorinator.
The problem with chlorine generators in commercial pools is that when you have a lot of people using the pool at one time the generator can't keep up.
You should really look at cal hypo systems like the one PPG has so that you can raise the chlorine level at a moments notice.
Comments
If the problem you are running into is that the salt chlorine systems are not able to keep up or the power modules burning up prematurely, I have a few suggestions, which our colleagues above seem to agree with me on.
Most salt chlorine generator manufactures seem to follow similar criteria when sizing a salt chlorine system, though the sales representatives sometimes take a different approach. What I mean by this is - that the larger the cell or the more cells that are "actually" required to keep up with the demand in a body of water are not always what are installed because of the all mighty dollar. It has been my experience that salt systems tend to be undersized where in reality we should be over sizing them. To make the initial investment of a salt system more attractive sometimes – some (Not All) sales representatives will sell on the size of the body of water instead of the demand that the pool/spa may have. With that being said we end up with an undersized salt system which cannot keep up with the demand and is forced to work harder therefore burning up cells or power modules earlier than they should. Here are some possible suggestions:
1. Encourage your facilities to over size there salt systems.
2. Keep the maximum amount of salt in the pool that is suggested by a manufacturer (more salt will give you more chlorine production). But please be careful not to put too much in for you could damage your pool and pool accessories.
3. Make sure that if you are using a salt chlorine system that you are careful of your CYA levels. Why do most salt chlorine manufactures suggest using higher amounts of CyA? In Layman’s terms - the more CyA in the water in an outdoor pool the more likely the salt chlorine generators is to keep up with chlorine demand. When using sodium hypochlorite or calcium hypochlorite you only notice the amount of chlorine being used not how hard the chlorine pump or solenoid valve is working. Nor does the chemical feed pump or solenoid valve care; they just do what is needed to get the job done. Salt chlorine generators, on the other hand, are only manufactured to produce specific amounts of chlorine per day. Which means, if the system is sized smaller than it should be, then it won’t be able to keep up with chlorine demand? This is especially vital in an outdoor body of water where UV rays are contributing to chlorine loss. So with all of this being said, most salt chlorine manufactures will tell you to add more Cyanuric acid and to keep it at higher levels. This will reduce the amount of chlorine loss due to UV rays so that their systems look as if they are able to keep up with the demand. Now this is not a negative bash on the salt chlorine manufactures, the problem does not lie with their systems it lies with proper sizing of equipment. It is a very difficult task to size a salt chlorine system. When sizing you have to take into consideration the volume of the pool and three variables that are hard to predict; the amount of bather load, salt loss (backwash, splash out, or leaks) and the amount of chlorine loss through UV rays. The problem is that the larger the system the more expensive it becomes to the end-user. With all of this in mind, we must be careful that when salt chlorine systems are sized that they are size accordingly and we do not rely on the use of CyA to help keep up with chlorine demand and we should remember NEVER use CYA in INDOOR POOLS.
4. Using a backup chlorination system (as suggested by Scott Heusser) in conjunction with an automated pH and ORP controller. The CAT 4000 and CAT 5000 controllers are equipped with a second relay, which can be used to control your primary or secondary ORP set points. That being said, you could have an undersized salt system or even a properly sized salt system that in some cases is unable to keep up with demand. and if you had a backup chlorination system the controller will power on either a peristaltic feed pump or open a solenoid valve to allow both systems to be feeding at the same time. This is a great way to inexpensively keep up with chlorine demand.
5. Maintaining a good pH (As Rick Larson Said) – maybe even slightly lower than you would normally maintain it, possibly at 7.4pH or 7.3pH this helps cut down on calcium build up within the cells and also makes for more HOCL.
6. Make sure to clean your salt cells as directed by your salt chlorine generator manufacture.
7. Coupling salt systems with UV is another great solution as stated by Scott Pancake.
Gary if there is anything CAT can do to help besides start manufacturing a salt chlorine system please feel free to give me a call. I hope all is well and good luck!
On the larger commercial projects, we have had incredible results and feedback by incorporating UV systems(Hanovia, Siemens, etc.), in conjunction with chlorine systems.
You can also look at commercially sized SCG units. I learned very quickly that when a manufacutrer says a unit is good for 40k gallons they definitely don't mean on a commercial basis.
If you do use a puck feeder with Tri Chlor you stand the chance of driving the CYA so high the chlorine become ineffective and if its an indoor pool or spa you don't want any to begin with. I also think its a lot more difficult to maintain an even PPM reading with a puck feeder, especially in a commercial/public pool. It also might mean using a lot of Soda Ash which really can't be monitored and auto fed. Well I guess it can, but I think its a bit of a messy way to do things.
If you use a Cal Hypo feeder you stand the chance of driving your hardness so high you need to run lower Alk and pH in order to compensate. You should also be shocking with Cal Hypo and depending on use the pH could be wanting to stay quite high. This goes against trying to keep a low pH and Alk in order to offset the constantly climbing Hardness. Use would determine how fast any of that changed though I guess.
Using Liquid Chlorine you know you will be feeding acid and both chemicals can be done automatically, easily and cheaply. You can keep them at any level you want as well as allowing you to control where your hardness will be. By testing and adjusting all the levels over a short period of time you should be able to find a pH level that doesn't require a lot adjustment and keep the Langlier happy.
Of course your fill water will play an important role too. Anyways, just another way to look at it.
You should really look at cal hypo systems like the one PPG has so that you can raise the chlorine level at a moments notice.