Bringing Calcium back in Solution

With apologies for hijacking another thread, I thought I might continue here with my questioning of bringing CH back in to solution without an acid wash.

My question is that if I had a pool with high CH, and I brought it down to 150-ish and had the customer maintain a low pH (in the 7.0 range, for example), would enough time allow for the CH build up on the plaster to come back in to solution, and not cause any other damage?

Where I am (S. California) we have extremely hard water and drought conditions.  I hate to see drain and refills, and I hate (and always decline) acid washes.  Too many people sell the drain and acid wash to make a quick buck, and it does the homeowner no favors, as is just shortens the remaining time until they need to re-plaster.  I am diligently trying to find a less intrusive way to solve the CH build up without harsh chemicals and acid washed type side effects for the customer.

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Replies

  • Thanks, Richard. What I am trying to do is lower the CH to around 150 with R/O, and then have the customer maintain a pH that allows the calcium to be "pulled off" the plaster and back in to suspension, with no need for a drain, acid wash and refill. Since most plaster jobs I see are in relatively good shape-aside from the scale-and I am there to lower their CH, it would be a nice bonus if I could help them remove some of the build up with a little aggressive water chemistry.

    I appreciate all of the input! Thank you guys!
  • I presume you mean adding borates to the water such as with a combination of 20 Mule Team Borax and Muriatic Acid or by adding Boric Acid, correct? This will provide additional pH buffering so will slow down the rate of pH change so if the pH tended to rise over time this would tend to avoid scaling, assuming someone still went and added acid to lower the pH as frequently (the amount of acid added is the same, but the pH doesn't rise as much so helps to prevent scaling from that rise).

    However, it doesn't directly prevent scaling at usual concentrations found in pools. Borates are a mild sequestering agent, but are very weak for sequestering at 50 ppm (they're far stronger when used in laundry applications since they are far more concentrated in that usage).

    One can, however lower the TA level as the CH rises. If one has 50 ppm Borates in the water, then one can lower the TA over time even to 50 ppm since the Borates will still provide decent pH buffering. I'm assuming here that a hypochlorite source of chlorine is being used. You shouldn't use this approach if using Trichlor as it is too acidic and requires a higher TA because the carbonate buffer system is far stronger at preventing large drops in pH while the borate buffer system is much stronger at preventing a rise (relative to normal pH levels in pools).

    A TA of 50 ppm with 30 ppm CYA and 50 ppm Borates and 7.5 pH and an 85ºF temperature would be in balance (saturation index 0) with a CH of around 700 ppm. Scaling usually doesn't occur until the saturation index is fairly positive, usually +0.7 or higher though as Que mentions it's traditionally considered in balance within 0.3 of zero. With the numbers I just gave, a CH of around 2300 ppm would be at a +0.3 saturation index. So lowering the TA level can certainly give you a lot of leeway in terms of how high the CH can get before scaling significantly occurs. By comparison, with a TA of 100 ppm, balance is with a CH of 250 ppm and +0.3 is with a CH of 500 ppm.

    Of course, the TA is usually high in fill water when the CH is high so evaporation and refill will tend to have the TA rise over time. So to maintain a lower TA level as the CH rises, one would have to add acid regularly (and probably provide aeration to drive off carbon dioxide faster).

    As Que noted, the more classic approach to this problem is to use metal sequestrants designed to sequester calcium and to inhibit formation of scale.
  • Borax would raise pH and TA. I'm thinking just the opposite; lower pH to make it slightly aggressive and bring the calcium off of the plaster,
  • Would adding 20 mule borax help with this situation?
  • Gotcha. And I am not trying to hoop you into something and hang you later!

    Yup, too many variables and no "one size fits all" application! Thanks for all of the responses; I appreciate it!


  • Bruce Wettstein said:
    What would you consider "too soft" Que? I can pretty much take CH down anywhere I want, so if I understand 75 to absolutely be aggressive, I would assume that mid 100's should be relatively safe, yes?

    There are too many unanswered parameters for there to be a simple answer to this question. If the goal is to neither actively etch nor actively scale the pool, simply balance the water. If the goal is to dissolve calcium, that can be achieved by lowering pH, alkalinity, or hardness. The degree to which one lowers them is dependent on the degree of aggressive effect desired. If one wants the process to take days vs. weeks vs. months, pick a degree of aggressiveness.

    The term "safe" is relative. Experience and ease of control and available time frame are factors.

    And in addition, all calcium carbonate rheology is not equal - some crystalline formations of pool scale are relatively softer or harder, more or less soluble, sharper or bumpier, whiter or stained (containing foreign material in the crystalline structure), etc.

    Guess all the variables keep stain removal techs in business, eh?
  • What would you consider "too soft" Que? I can pretty much take CH down anywhere I want, so if I understand 75 to absolutely be aggressive, I would assume that mid 100's should be relatively safe, yes?
  • I guess it depends on the situation - I have had good experiences with both the No-Dran acid wash and the Jack's Magic Stain Solution #2 process, both of which are more invasive than your proposal but less than a traditional acid wash. But they only lasted a few days, and I was watching them carefully.

    If I do need to remove existing calcium carbonate scale, and if underwater techniques fail the spot test pre-evaluation, I prefer wet-sanding.

    All that being said, as a preventative measure, maintaining soft enough (but not too soft) water is optimal.
  • These levels seem pretty safe to me, if I read correctly. I don't know that I'd want to be much more aggressive than this though, correct? I also wouldn't think I'd want to be too much "safer" and expect much, also correct? I want to be helpful, not harmful!
  • So to continue our conversation ;0)

    The ranges you specified (pH around 7, TA around 40, TC around 175 and TDS around 700) would result in a LSI value of around -1.0. Since water with an LSI of less than -0.3 is generally understood to have an increasing tendency to dissolve calcium carbonate, that routine should slowly dissolve pool scale.

    Since pool plaster has a paste component which contains calcium carbonate at surface, the above parameters also have the capability of dissolving the plaster itself. But you should have alot more control over the process than with a full-out acid treatment.

    Like anything else, technique and care are key...
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