I am doing some research on the debris impact of chipping out an average plaster or stone pool.

How many tons of debris are loaded to the landfill from one pool?

 

I am also trying to analyse the amount of airborne debris (the big white cloud of dust) created by the chip out.

 

If you can think of any other impacts to the carbon footprint of the build or remodel of the average plaster or stone pool...I would gladly discuss.

 

Kind Regards...Tim

 

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  • Tim

    There is one another concept I forgot about. The rainy weather here actually reminded me.

    I know a pond building contractor that was offering and installing what he refered to as Rain Water Harvesting.

    Essentially rain water from gutter leaders was captured in a holding tank buried on the property. It was then in turn used for make up water for the pond or for irrigation purposes. This is not a new concept but it is grabbing hold to residential clients.

     

    A couple of years ago I was asked to bid on a project at Fordham University in the Bronx, NYC where they were using this method with a twist. They were planning on building new dorms for students. The location was to be nearly all blacktop to allow for parking with some planter areas adjacent to the buildings. Their specs called for a large ( can't remember the size) holding tank that was to be outfitted with a filtration system. They planned on using the captured water from the gutter leaders for irrigation purposes. Plus, I believe alowing gutter leaders to dump water onto the property posed a possible flood situation, ice in the winter, etc... 

    This certainly qualifies as a green or sustainable product/concept. No, I did not get the project. Interesting look though.

     

    I remember reading in a trade magazine some years ago when California was having severe drought conditions. At public pools-giant ones- they had holding tanks on site to capture backwashed water. Thousands of gallons were captured during backwashing, the sediment was allowed to settle to the bottom, the water was re-treated and re-introduced as make up water. The tanks were scraped of the sediment and the cycle continued.

     There's a great publication that is FREE called Water Efficiency. They're geared towards municipalities for water conservation on a large scale but nonetheless it's out there. I see this concept definitely becoming a trend and maybe a requirement for the swimming pool industry to conserve water.

  • Kevin,

     

    There has been quite a bit of good feedback...I may have confused a couple of comments...all good though.

    You really seem to be tied in to the thought processes of many of the builders who are looking for energy efficiency,

    job site utility and sustainable product use.

    The marketing message is very effective for a new  generation of pool buyers.

    Thx for the post and if you can think of any other item that might pop out at you...please relay to me.

    Regards,

    Tim


  • Tim,

    I agree that people want to save on energy costs including myself. I do sell products based on that concept and they are resoundingly all for it.

    I think perhaps you confused someone else's post concerning incorporating materials on site into a design. I will comment though. If we demo everything goes. I can't say we have used those materials as a design add on. We have though used natural materials such as boulders or natural stone from a job site for walls, waterfalls, etc... Don't have drive anywhere. Saves time, money and fuel. Plus the homeowners have a topic of conservation saying materials used for the project came from their own backyard.

     

    Not familiar with this buy back program. Interesting idea. I would think there are limitations on sizes, town approvals, site conditions to install and then remove. Sort of on the same line of renting a portable spa for parties, etc.. but they are afterall portable.

    Like Dave said, people are VERY willing to pay more. They are paying attention. Like I had mentioned, their willingness to purchase is fueled by emotions. Which is just fine. In the end customers are happy and the contractors are happy.


    TIm Maas said:

    Kevin,

    I appreciate the response...

    NPC was able to give me very good data on the topic of debris.

    I am interested in your comments about the saleability of the Green/Sustainability criteria.

    I have found that people in general want to save on energy costs. The pool equipment industry has made good strides in this area...but Your initiative to use the materials around the site and incorporate them into the design is an added value marketing tool.

    Heard about a pool buyback program from a builder. Sells pre-engineered pools and states if your swim habits change he will pull pool back out of the ground...pay you for it and re-sell the pool. Seems like a very sellable concept.

    What do you think?

    Kevin Misley said:

    Tim, as some of the previous posts regarding calculating old plaster generated from a demo is right on. The pool size will dictate the amount. Knowing the surface SF is key to determining.

     

    If we perform a demo and chip out the plaster, remove tile, coping, decking anything that's a cement based product, we will haul it to stone yard that will recycle it for road bed use. It does get a second life. In my opinion, and this common sense talking, using say old plaster in new plaster production is not a good idea. There are too many impurities that would spoil the mix. Left over chems, metal deposits, etc..

    Can't comment on particulates in the air during demo though.

     

    As far as the Green movement for products I'm all for it. It's just that people have to realize that in order to produce these products fossil fuels are necessary to develop, manufacture, package, ship and install. So how green is it really? No doubt the product however at the end will be efficient and yes green.

    The Green movement and even the Sustainable products stir people's emotions into thinking they are doing something admirable and it makes them feel all warm and fuzzy. That's good salesmanship and fantastic marketing.

    Example: Puppy dog sale. You go to a pet shop and a cute puppy is put in your hands. How do feel? Right. You melt. SOLD! Visa/Mastercard sir?

     

    I'm not panning green or sustainable products. I'm totally for moving towards this concept. I offer those types of products to my clients. But, I think people should be aware how it comes to it's fruition.

    If I can't grow it my garden next to my tomatoes, it's not really (completely) green.

  • My Subcontractors (plaster and demo) recycle everything they can...

     

    We take our plaster chippings to a recycler, and also the concrete that is removed from the site get recycled as well.  I am charged more for concrete slab demo if it has steel rebar or mesh, because there is significantly more labor involved separating the concrete from the metal, so that the materials can be sent to the appropriate facilities...

     

    As this movement grows, I believe that there will be more options available.  Little things like the fact that PebbleTec has changed their packaging materials and procedures to be more "green" make a difference to the clients.  They want to know that you as a contractor are aware of and paying attention to these kind of things  Most of the clients that are concerned about these type of things are VERY willing to pay more (they just expect that these things cost more, and they are not surprised when they do).

  • Kevin,

    I appreciate the response...

    NPC was able to give me very good data on the topic of debris.

    I am interested in your comments about the saleability of the Green/Sustainability criteria.

    I have found that people in general want to save on energy costs. The pool equipment industry has made good strides in this area...but Your initiative to use the materials around the site and incorporate them into the design is an added value marketing tool.

    Heard about a pool buyback program from a builder. Sells pre-engineered pools and states if your swim habits change he will pull pool back out of the ground...pay you for it and re-sell the pool. Seems like a very sellable concept.

    What do you think?

    Kevin Misley said:

    Tim, as some of the previous posts regarding calculating old plaster generated from a demo is right on. The pool size will dictate the amount. Knowing the surface SF is key to determining.

     

    If we perform a demo and chip out the plaster, remove tile, coping, decking anything that's a cement based product, we will haul it to stone yard that will recycle it for road bed use. It does get a second life. In my opinion, and this common sense talking, using say old plaster in new plaster production is not a good idea. There are too many impurities that would spoil the mix. Left over chems, metal deposits, etc..

    Can't comment on particulates in the air during demo though.

     

    As far as the Green movement for products I'm all for it. It's just that people have to realize that in order to produce these products fossil fuels are necessary to develop, manufacture, package, ship and install. So how green is it really? No doubt the product however at the end will be efficient and yes green.

    The Green movement and even the Sustainable products stir people's emotions into thinking they are doing something admirable and it makes them feel all warm and fuzzy. That's good salesmanship and fantastic marketing.

    Example: Puppy dog sale. You go to a pet shop and a cute puppy is put in your hands. How do feel? Right. You melt. SOLD! Visa/Mastercard sir?

     

    I'm not panning green or sustainable products. I'm totally for moving towards this concept. I offer those types of products to my clients. But, I think people should be aware how it comes to it's fruition.

    If I can't grow it my garden next to my tomatoes, it's not really (completely) green.

  • I appreciate the complexities of group dynamics...just landed on some  varying dialogue in the beginning.

    I have seen the group dynamic change as other participants realize I am not a tree hugger...though I do enjoy trees.

    Thanks for the response I will give you a call...

    T

    PGN Admin said:

    Hi Tim,

    It's great to see again!  It's been a long time.  I see you got the conversation started off with a BANG!  : )

     

    You will find a diverse group here from all over the world.  There are topical discussions that cover every aspect of interest and level of science.  I have designed this site as much as possible to encourage dialog and there is no short supply of opinions. But I have found there is a large audience of "observers" who read, and watch, and listen, and even the controversy brings the realization of new ideas.

     

    I love the discussion you have started, and while I have not personally given thought to question you have posed, I have given great thought to energy efficient design... we should talk!  : )

     

    Glad to have you and wish you well!

  • David,

    Thanks for the comments...I too am not politically motivated by this discussion. I am looking at an industry that I have been part of for 20 years and asking myself simple questions about the best possible way to build a water vessel.

    I know I will not meet everybody's criteria...it is virtually impossible to have all sides agree on anything. But your analogy of the truck with the same capabilities that gets better gas mileage is a good one...at some point people in general say ..."thats a better choice". of course others will say why drive a truck..get a Prius...not to practical for construction.

    I will be sharing the ideas that I research and will happily send you a copy.

    By the way...here in Phoenix many plaster companies dump all plaster, stone,tile and concrete in the landfills. This was the first item that started my research.

    Do all companies in your area deliver to a recycle fecility for hard materials?? 



    David Penton said:

    I do not have time to chime in right now... BUT this is coming! 

     

    Just a quick FYI... We are so slammed with work, that I have actually turned some down - and much of our work has been generated by promoting sustainable building practices, and energy efficient pools.  We have recycled the existing concrete in projects and re-purposed it as retaining walls, used boulders recovered during excavation as decorative features, graded properties to maximize onsite reclamation of rain water... The options are almost endless!!!

     

    This is not a Left Wing Democratic agenda!  In fact I'm quite conservative in myself.  This has nothing to do with political party at all.  We can all do a better job about much of this stuff!  Answer this question... would you rather drive a truck that gets 8 mpg, or one that gets 28 mpg?  If the trucks are exactly the same except for the mileage then everyone would choose the one with the better efficiency.  What does that have to do with politics?!  I have a big problem with the political parties agenda's that they promote and try to ram down our throats, and agree that there are some fringe elements (maybe a lot) within the "green" movement, but we all need to get past the ugly politics of this issue, and realize that John Q Public is interested in this (and often the people most interested in this are the ones with the most $$$ BTW) and this is one of the areas of the industry that does seem to be growing right now. 

     

    I personally am excited to see where this ends up going... I think that we as an industry have just begun to explore this, and I too would be interested in the results of some of these kind of studies. 

     

    Thanks for starting this discussion, and I would love to know what you end up with when you conclude your research.  If you could send me your results that would be greatly appreciated.

     

    Dave Penton

    Fluid Dynamics Pool and Spa

  • Tim, as some of the previous posts regarding calculating old plaster generated from a demo is right on. The pool size will dictate the amount. Knowing the surface SF is key to determining.

     

    If we perform a demo and chip out the plaster, remove tile, coping, decking anything that's a cement based product, we will haul it to stone yard that will recycle it for road bed use. It does get a second life. In my opinion, and this common sense talking, using say old plaster in new plaster production is not a good idea. There are too many impurities that would spoil the mix. Left over chems, metal deposits, etc..

    Can't comment on particulates in the air during demo though.

     

    As far as the Green movement for products I'm all for it. It's just that people have to realize that in order to produce these products fossil fuels are necessary to develop, manufacture, package, ship and install. So how green is it really? No doubt the product however at the end will be efficient and yes green.

    The Green movement and even the Sustainable products stir people's emotions into thinking they are doing something admirable and it makes them feel all warm and fuzzy. That's good salesmanship and fantastic marketing.

    Example: Puppy dog sale. You go to a pet shop and a cute puppy is put in your hands. How do feel? Right. You melt. SOLD! Visa/Mastercard sir?

     

    I'm not panning green or sustainable products. I'm totally for moving towards this concept. I offer those types of products to my clients. But, I think people should be aware how it comes to it's fruition.

    If I can't grow it my garden next to my tomatoes, it's not really (completely) green.

  • I do not have time to chime in right now... BUT this is coming! 

     

    Just a quick FYI... We are so slammed with work, that I have actually turned some down - and much of our work has been generated by promoting sustainable building practices, and energy efficient pools.  We have recycled the existing concrete in projects and re-purposed it as retaining walls, used boulders recovered during excavation as decorative features, graded properties to maximize onsite reclamation of rain water... The options are almost endless!!!

     

    This is not a Left Wing Democratic agenda!  In fact I'm quite conservative in myself.  This has nothing to do with political party at all.  We can all do a better job about much of this stuff!  Answer this question... would you rather drive a truck that gets 8 mpg, or one that gets 28 mpg?  If the trucks are exactly the same except for the mileage then everyone would choose the one with the better efficiency.  What does that have to do with politics?!  I have a big problem with the political parties agenda's that they promote and try to ram down our throats, and agree that there are some fringe elements (maybe a lot) within the "green" movement, but we all need to get past the ugly politics of this issue, and realize that John Q Public is interested in this (and often the people most interested in this are the ones with the most $$$ BTW) and this is one of the areas of the industry that does seem to be growing right now. 

     

    I personally am excited to see where this ends up going... I think that we as an industry have just begun to explore this, and I too would be interested in the results of some of these kind of studies. 

     

    Thanks for starting this discussion, and I would love to know what you end up with when you conclude your research.  If you could send me your results that would be greatly appreciated.

     

    Dave Penton

    Fluid Dynamics Pool and Spa

  • Hi Tim,

    It's great to see again!  It's been a long time.  I see you got the conversation started off with a BANG!  : )

     

    You will find a diverse group here from all over the world.  There are topical discussions that cover every aspect of interest and level of science.  I have designed this site as much as possible to encourage dialog and there is no short supply of opinions. But I have found there is a large audience of "observers" who read, and watch, and listen, and even the controversy brings the realization of new ideas.

     

    I love the discussion you have started, and while I have not personally given thought to question you have posed, I have given great thought to energy efficient design... we should talk!  : )

     

    Glad to have you and wish you well!

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