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• 

  Ray Cronise December 29, 2008 at 6:58am

  Scott Heusser said:

  Ray Cronise said:

  Scott Yeah, I dont trust little 2 inch $7 gauges either. I bought some 4 inch oil filled guages from Omega and mounted them for ease of handling.

  
  Yes, have two of them and still, get acceptable, but not good repeatable results compared to a NIST traceable delta-P cell (PSID Column below). But what you are using is a TREMENDOUS step above what people buy at the local distribution level. Last year at the Aquatech Society Meeting we did a live demonstration of a pump curve. The delta-P measurements exactly aligned with manufacturer published.
  
  

  

  
  Take a look at this table. The pressure and vacuum gauges are identical to what you are using, but look at the difference between the DP cell and doing the math on the "pressure vacuum" approach taught (ΔP column calculated from two measurements) in the industry. Remember this was all done on a realtime system with all data taken at the same time. There is a larger discrepancy, especially when you get into higher TDH. One you get to 6-3, the vacuum gauge is just reading zero, but notice the TDH is still changing. 6-3 and 7 system curves btw, are the exact curves A and C used in California's Title 20/24 energy efficiency requirements. Our results matched theirs almost perfectly even thought we set up our original testing to prove they were wrong. Got to love how sciences works!!!
  
  Again, there is nothing wrong with what you are doing as you are WAY ahead of the industry at large, we are just trying to take all the math out with a product that reads TDH directly so that ANYBODY can read TDH directly from a gauge with the system running.
  
  I truly applaud your efforts to step this up and would love to hear some real numbers from pools that you have estimated TDH before building and what they actually read after construction was complete. That is where the industry is missing a LOT of good data. I think the 50 ft of H2O rule of thumb is outdated with today's better building standards and more efficient equipment pad.
  
  Hope that helps!
  
  Ray
• 

  Scott Heusser December 26, 2008 at 2:05pm

  Ray Cronise said:

  Scott Heusser said:

  Hi Terry,
  
  I use a vacuum gauge and a pressure gauge. I wrote a conversion script on an excel spreadsheet and sent it to my Blackberry for field use. Just another option.

  
  Scott
  
  excellent idea. Please let me know what vacuum gauge you are using. On older systems with restrictive pumping (vacuum > 5-10 in Hg) you will get ok results. As Plumbing becomes more efficient, it starts falling off rapidly. The inexpensive gauges available at most pool distribution are NOT very accurate. I would suggest you eventually move to the Delta Pressure gauge. What Terry has reads out in TDH (FT of H20) directly, so no math required - saving valuable battery life on that crackberry for some more email and other distractions - LOL.
  
  Let me know if you are interested and I can provide gauges until they are available widely through distribution.
  
  Ray

  
  Yeah, I dont trust little 2 inch $7 gauges either. I bought some 4 inch oil filled guages from Omega and mounted them for ease of handling.
• 

  Ray Cronise December 23, 2008 at 4:52am

  TERRY HEIM said:

  Hi Hugo,
  
  I have a prototype unit, including the tubing and fittings, ordered and expect it to arrive soon. Once I have used it and I am sure that it does what I expect it to do I will forward the information as to where to obtain a TDH gage. The one I have ordered uses two (2) gages of different TDH ranges. The single TDH gage with a wider TDH range will be available from multiple vendors but is not available as of yet. I do not know how may prototype units Ray Cronise has left at this point.
  
  Terry

  
  I can continue to order them in small quantities. Send me an email to raycronise@gmail.com and I will try to collect enough builders to put in one more order.
  
  Ray
• 

  Ray Cronise December 23, 2008 at 4:51am

  Scott Heusser said:

  Hi Terry,
  
  I use a vacuum gauge and a pressure gauge. I wrote a conversion script on an excel spreadsheet and sent it to my Blackberry for field use. Just another option.

  
  Scott
  
  excellent idea. Please let me know what vacuum gauge you are using. On older systems with restrictive pumping (vacuum > 5-10 in Hg) you will get ok results. As Plumbing becomes more efficient, it starts falling off rapidly. The inexpensive gauges available at most pool distribution are NOT very accurate. I would suggest you eventually move to the Delta Pressure gauge. What Terry has reads out in TDH (FT of H20) directly, so no math required - saving valuable battery life on that crackberry for some more email and other distractions - LOL.
  
  Let me know if you are interested and I can provide gauges until they are available widely through distribution.
  
  Ray
• 

  Ray Cronise December 23, 2008 at 4:47am

  TERRY HEIM said:

  Hi Hugo,
  
  I have a prototype unit, including the tubing and fittings, ordered and expect it to arrive soon. Once I have used it and I am sure that it does what I expect it to do I will forward the information as to where to obtain a TDH gage. The one I have ordered uses two (2) gages of different TDH ranges. The single TDH gage with a wider TDH range will be available from multiple vendors but is not available as of yet. I do not know how may prototype units Ray Cronise has left at this point.
  
  Terry

  
  All
  
  Terry has production units and if you send me an email (raycronise@gmail.com, I can get more until distribution becomes available. There will be a much larger distribution very soon. You will need two gauges with different ranges. I tried several to get a "one gauge fits all" approach (less to carry) but the problem will come at the lower end of the scale. The issue of course is the lower the scale, the more accurate the reading has to be, because lower TDH = Higher Flow Rate.
  
  I have tested against digital NIST-Traceable gauges and used the Vacuum Gauge/Pressure gauge (1.13/2.31) approach. The gauges I found match the certified NISTE gauges, the second method, even with vacuum gauges that cost more that a single Delta-pressure gauge, gave bad results at the lower end. At this point we have created well over 100 pump curves and if you have been to one of my TDH classes (the long one, not the short one) the you will find that once you get this concept down, it is VERY simple, fast and effective.
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  TERRY HEIM December 22, 2008 at 1:33pm

  Hi Hugo,
  
  I have a prototype unit, including the tubing and fittings, ordered and expect it to arrive soon. Once I have used it and I am sure that it does what I expect it to do I will forward the information as to where to obtain a TDH gage. The one I have ordered uses two (2) gages of different TDH ranges. The single TDH gage with a wider TDH range will be available from multiple vendors but is not available as of yet. I do not know how may prototype units Ray Cronise has left at this point.
  
  Terry
• 

  Jeff Gale December 21, 2008 at 1:28pm

  I was also in the 9:30 to 11:00 meeting. I am anxious to put together TDH gage as well. Please someone send out a broad message when one becomes available.
• 

  Scott Heusser December 1, 2008 at 11:16am

  Hi Terry,
  
  I use a vacuum gauge and a pressure gauge. I wrote a conversion script on an excel spreadsheet and sent it to my Blackberry for field use. Just another option.
• This reply was deleted.
  • 

    TERRY HEIM November 24, 2008 at 11:10am

    Thank you for your assistance.
    
    Terry Heim