I have a YMCA client who has the floor/wall drain covers They are approximately 12" x 12", with 6" up the wall and 6" on the floor.
Is there an off the shelf VGB approved cover available?
If not, what solutions have you seen out there for this application?
Thanks
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Replies
CPSC doesnt Care - They want VGB compliance on all pools - Certified by an Engineer, and Approved by LOCAL HEALTH Dept.
Al - You can call me if you want to increase your knowledge on this.
Wes,
I don't do any VGB work, but I replied to this discussion earlier, and put some pics up of what they are doing around here for the L-drains. The Y's that have these around here have done the work, but have to wonder if it is even necessary. The typical L-drain pool around here are basically gravity-drain pools. There is no piping that connects the drain to the pump suction. The drain just drains into the surge tank, and is flow regulated by a float valve. Pump suction comes off the surge tank proper. There is no piping directly from the L-drain to the pump suction, so their is no entrapment issue. Has anyone checked this out with the CPSC?
Wes - Thats correct...
The reason is simply because there are 6 inspectors in the Northeastern US...covering more than 10 states...they wont be able to see revisit a pool. But Ive changed that...When I goto a pool that has been closed down, my relationship with the CPSC is good enough to get a certification to reopen within 48 hours...they only care about the paper...the inspectors are from the Federal govt.
I charge a premium for reopening a pool, because I have to correct someone elses mistakes...#1 problem.,..no sump installs of VGB covers. I despise that, but I make sure that at the end of the day, that drain is certified unblockable...and call it a day.
If you have any questions about VGB compliance, or have a "Special' case (I like that L drain solution by Aquastar, by the way - is it an aquastar part?, or something made up?), Let me know...
Thanks Clemente and Myles.
At this point, the Y decided to wait until the next renovation. I would love to have a legal "disclaimer letter" from someone who has had a client who decided to wait. I would like to have them sign off that I know and brought it to their attention the pool was NOT compliant and are risking heavy fines and putting lives at risk..
I just have to leave the pool alone for now.
Clemente,
Who is the CPSC using for inspections? I am not surprised they aren't looking at the pool though. With the Federal Government it usually comes done to a paper trail.
Am I understanding you correctly: 2 Universities were closed down because of incorrect paperwork, and it could take up to 2 years before re-inspection along with a 500,000 fine.
Thanks again guys.
Here is the site http://www.poolsafetyconsultants.com/vgbcompliance.html and this is the one seen at the Aquastar booths.
He will have them backed by an Engineer. John Gable is his name and here is his contact (734) 277-1999
Wes - Whatever you do - Be sure its backed by an Engineer!
Im still doing VGB work here in NY, mainly because the CPSC has started inspecting pools, and they are closing pools down!... 2 Universities who did the work got closed down because they HAD NO PAPAERWORK...
The CPSC is looking for the following:
-Paperwork showing an Engineer was involved in the sizing and selection of a pool's VGB solution. This INCLUDES the SUMP.
-Paperwork indicating Procurement and Installation by either a Pool Professional, or the Facilitiy themselves.
-A Certification by the Manufacturer of such solution(s) that they comply with the ASTM standard & VGB.
I kid you not - These people arent even looking at the pool! - they just want to see paperwork.
The Result - Minimum Fine: $500,000!
Pool Closed until they can go for a reinspect - last I checked: 18-24 months...
Make sure your clients are properly protected!...
With That in Mind - dont slouch on ADA either...!
The video is still up on youtube
it was posted by BePoolSafe and is in a group of videos on VGB covers
find it at
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMSaUKrm8EU
Bruce
Wes,
L-drains can be a challenge because of their position in the wall/floor, and in the typical slope to drain in the hoppers. Replacing pre-manufactured replacement covers would be nice if you can get away with just replacing them. Some concerns I would have would be how well they would drain, and what effect the existing sumps would have on the engineered flow rates of the new cover -- aka...the re-call issue. The pools around here that have L-drains are some of the older pools, and expected flow rates through the older brass housings/piping connections are probaly not what they should be due to corrosion down by the piping connection.
Wisconsin has taken a very strong stance on the main drain issue, whereas the sumps and covers are considered to be changes to the pool shell, and have to be re-approved and re-engineered. For most pools in Wisconsin, replacing just the cover is not an option the State will approve. If an engineer signs off on a design, then he assumes much of the liability. As a result, this means enlarging or deepening of the sump, along with the new cover, is often necessary.
With that said, the approach of just putting on a replacement cover/box to be fitted to the existing sump has not been done to the L-drain pools that I have seen. What they are doing is abandoning the old L-drains altogether, and putting in a new pair of Lawson 18" x18" sumps in the hopper. Now it's not as bad as it sounds. The company that is doing these around here sends out a crew of 2 people, and they are in and out in 1 day.
L-drain pools normally slope all the way to the back wall, and to the drains, so putting new sumps in the usual place would mean re-doing the slope of the whole hopper. They get away from doing this by putting them directly in front of the old L-drain, with the centerline of the new sump being about 18" from the wall - this puts the edge of the new 18" x 18" cover about 9" from the wall, which is about 5" from the inside edge of the rounded cope. They typically do a cutout of 30" x 33" for each sump.
Most L-drain pools around here have access below grade, a tunnel or basement equipment rooms. The floor of these areas are deep enough to be about a foot or so below the existing main drain piping, so it is basically going through just a wall to run the short length of pipe needed. Tying into existing plumbing isn't all that difficult, as it is easily accessible. It looks like they core drill through the wall next to the old L-drain or just below it.
I'm enclosing a couple of pictures of a pool that was done in 2009, and just recently drained for maintenance. It gravity drained all the way with no problem. We don't do this type of work, so I'm only guessing how they did them. I do have a couple of actual details that the state signed off on if you opt for this approach. Send me your email address or fax.
L- drain conversion-2.jpg
L-drain connection.jpg
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