I have had alot of customers with high phosphate levels and they where not sure how they got this level so high. I had several customers bring me water samples from their tap water. The phosphate levels in their tap water was well over 2500 ppb!!! I know they use this to help corrosion in the plumbing in older towns. My question would be is it harmful to us as the consumer and how do we keep the levels down in the pools if they are adding fresh water with this hi a level of phosphates. Also is salt water pools better are chlorine pools in this situation????
Well stated Don. Your experiences with phosphate mirror my own. I cannot buy into BioLab's claims due to my experiences. Besides, aren't they the ones that told us sticks in the skimmer was a good idea?
Dispite the biolab test and there findings, having been actively testing for phosphates for the past almost ten years, and having seen the correlation between customers with Phosphates and those without phosphates are absolutely harmful. As I am sure you remember most detergents use to have phosphates in them and people had issues with algae growing in there washing machines, hence why detergents are now manufactured phosphate free.
First there are numberous ways in which Phosphates can get into pool water. Deteriorating organics (ie leaves), fertilizers, sequestering agents and municipalities.
-Organics left in the water to deteriorate will contribute to the pools phosphate issue.
-Home owners who fertilize their lawns will typically have a higher phosphate count because the fertilizers have phosphates in them and after a rain or the lawn is watered the runoff will carry the phosphates into the pool. If your customer is having an issue and does not fertilize their lawn their neighbors may and this can runoff into there pool as well.
-The bigger issue is with certain sequestering agents. Typically the trend is that a customer comes in with metals/ metal staining. The metals are then treated with a sequestering agent which fixes the metal problem, however almost immediately the customer has an algae problem. Check with your sequesstering agents manufacturer to see if it is phosphate free. If it is not I would recommend swithcing to MetalFree by Natural Chemistry.
-As to your tap water having in excess of 2500 ppm of phosphates. Many manicupalities have begun to add phosphates in areas where older piping has begun to deteriorate to compensate for the minerals getting into the water. Also many manicupalities add heavy amounts of phosphates to community wells for the same reason.
Once the problem has been identified it is very easy to treat. For phosphate levels of less than 2000 ppm I would recommend using Seaklears phosphate remover. Added through the skimmer it would reduce the clouding typically associated with phosphate removers and trap the phosphates in the filter. (Backwash/Clean before adding) For sand filters I would recommend using Nix by UltimaPool because of the sand filters poor filtering ability. This remover actually gets the phosphates to float to the surface to be skimmed off. If the phosphate level is over 2000ppm use either Alum or PhosFloc by Natural chemistry. These products will get the phosphates to drop out of solution where they can be vacuumed (typically to waste) out. For cartridge filers use the Nix product. Alum and PhosFloc are essentially the same. If your distributer carries Alum you will save yourself alot of money over using the phosfloc. Use the Alum at a rate of about 4lbs per 10k gallons.
Zodiac also offers a cartridge to use in the Nature2 systems that removes phosphates (I have not tried these yet so I cannot speak to there results).
After you have removed the phosphates get your customer on a weekly maintenance of a phosphate preventative and maintain your level below 100ppm. Maintained at these levels the phosphates should not be an issue. It is important that you or your customer is checking the level regularly.
As for the chlorine generator. As someone already set a salt pool is a chlorine pool. Just like any chlorine pool where you combatting something. It is necessary to increase the chlorine level to compensate. Most pools with a phosphate level over 500ppm will not get a good chlorine reading. With salt systems increase the output while the phosphates are being treated or use a granular chlorine if increasing the output does not work. I always have my customers clean there cell after treating a high phosphate content.
As with anything just because they have phosphates does not mean that that is the only problem. Do not oversell getting rid of phosphates as the end to there problems and continue to have the customers use a quad 60 algaecide on weekly basis.
I remember you talking about this with me a week or so ago......I did read some of the comments posted to this. In response to some of those comments: I do agree that nitrates are part of the problem as well as phosphates......as well, whoever mentioned the uncertainty of salt affecting phosphates; salt generators sold in 2003 where in no way a comparison to what they are now (or even when I got back into distribution in 2006), also, we did not stock salt for salt generators in distribution in 03; unless something else has happened in the last few years, I would lean towards salt definitely having an effect on the rising phosphate problem. That or too many people are "jumping into that boat", because phosphate removing products are hard to keep on the shelf, and requested about ten times more now than in 03, and salt sold dozens of truckloads per year. Lastly, I also noted the comment that Biolab tested for phosphates and found no issue with them; however, I know we did stock Sun Phosphate Remover about a year and a half ago, so at some time, they did believe that this was some kind of issue, or at least wanted to get a piece of that pie.
First of all salt water pools are chlorine pools. The chlorine generators (Salt pools) do not function properly many times due to phosphates in the water. I have shown high phosphates this year as well. Although I have never treated for phophates for 30 years prior I did this year and have found that once treated and removed the customers seem to have problem free pools. Wether or not it was the phosphate remover the customers are happier as many do research on the internet and already know that they want to be tested for phosphates. It may be by chance but I have had a few pools clear easier and quicker with the treatment. I am still holding out my vote on phosphates but at least I am making money and have happy customers until I decide.
Hi Cajun pool boy! We have the phosphate problem in my area as well. They have a phosphate remover product from a company called SeaKlear. This product does work quite well but it will cloud the pool for around 3-5 days, and you would have to do a weekly treatment to keep the levels down. Some alternatives to treating the phosphates is to increase the chlorine in the pool. With an automatic chlorinator a few years ago a customer would set the dial to 3 to have a chlorine reading of 3-5ppm. Now with the phosphate problem the customer now sets the chlorinator to 7 and is keeping a level of 3-5ppm. Each pool is different but you can have a safe chlorine reading with phosphates. Same with the salt systems, check that your stabilizer reading is between 60-80 ppm and increase your production!!!!
Biolab did a year of testing and found absolutely NO correlation between phosphate levels and algae growth. That is why they don't manufacture a phosphate remover. And the test commonly used to test phosphates is flawed. The compounds found in the tests are not what algae feeds on. These tests were developed for waterways where gov't agencies are trying to keep marine life alive. Same goes for the compound that is used to remove the phosphates.
Algae does feed on phosphates, but it feeds on many other nutrients. And it can store phosphates, the way people store fat. So if you remove the phosphates, algae will feed on other nutrients and use their stored phosphates until the water is replenished with more phosphates.
I had a pool route of 150 customers in the mid-90s -- before all the phosphate talk -- and they were all beautiful.
With your pools that are "eating" chlorine, you may have a a chlorine demand situation and the phosphate level may only be a small part of the problem.
There is an issue with phosphates in salt chlorinated pools. Give Biolab's chem techs a call during business hours (Atlanta time) for more information on that.
Cajun Boy, I was in a similar situation where we had 1.9 ppm of phosphate coming out of the tap. It was not uncommon to find that the pool techs were running their chlorine levels in excess of 20 ppm to combat algae. If nitrates were also part of that soup there was real trouble.
Phosphate removal was in its infancy then and the one product available was not very usefull with 300 pools and 5.5 million gals. of water. phosphates will hurt your wallet more than they will hurt you. Get rid of the phosphates and your chlorine consumption will go way down. I think you will be pleased with the improvement in water clarity too.
There are nitrate test strips now that make testing very easy and convenient. Do this before treating for phosphates. The only way to remove nitrate is to drain the pool so if you need to treat for both, go after the nitrate first. You may suspect which pools these are already. They will be your "pools from ...."
I don't believe salt is going to make any difference at all. Maybe someone else can help us answer that.
Hi Cajun Pool Boy! I am also having this problem in our area as well. The only thing that we have come up with is to have the customer add a weekly maint. dose of a phosphate remover. As far as it being harmful, im not sure, i guess it depends on if the water is from a well or not. If it is from the city or county then I would imagine that it is not harmful to customers considering they are letting their homeowners drink and bathe in it. I also dont think that it would make a difference having a salt pool versus a chloring pool, being that the salt system generates chlorine, the only benefit I see is that the salt is constantly producing the chlorine. Hope I was able to help!
Comments
First there are numberous ways in which Phosphates can get into pool water. Deteriorating organics (ie leaves), fertilizers, sequestering agents and municipalities.
-Organics left in the water to deteriorate will contribute to the pools phosphate issue.
-Home owners who fertilize their lawns will typically have a higher phosphate count because the fertilizers have phosphates in them and after a rain or the lawn is watered the runoff will carry the phosphates into the pool. If your customer is having an issue and does not fertilize their lawn their neighbors may and this can runoff into there pool as well.
-The bigger issue is with certain sequestering agents. Typically the trend is that a customer comes in with metals/ metal staining. The metals are then treated with a sequestering agent which fixes the metal problem, however almost immediately the customer has an algae problem. Check with your sequesstering agents manufacturer to see if it is phosphate free. If it is not I would recommend swithcing to MetalFree by Natural Chemistry.
-As to your tap water having in excess of 2500 ppm of phosphates. Many manicupalities have begun to add phosphates in areas where older piping has begun to deteriorate to compensate for the minerals getting into the water. Also many manicupalities add heavy amounts of phosphates to community wells for the same reason.
Once the problem has been identified it is very easy to treat. For phosphate levels of less than 2000 ppm I would recommend using Seaklears phosphate remover. Added through the skimmer it would reduce the clouding typically associated with phosphate removers and trap the phosphates in the filter. (Backwash/Clean before adding) For sand filters I would recommend using Nix by UltimaPool because of the sand filters poor filtering ability. This remover actually gets the phosphates to float to the surface to be skimmed off. If the phosphate level is over 2000ppm use either Alum or PhosFloc by Natural chemistry. These products will get the phosphates to drop out of solution where they can be vacuumed (typically to waste) out. For cartridge filers use the Nix product. Alum and PhosFloc are essentially the same. If your distributer carries Alum you will save yourself alot of money over using the phosfloc. Use the Alum at a rate of about 4lbs per 10k gallons.
Zodiac also offers a cartridge to use in the Nature2 systems that removes phosphates (I have not tried these yet so I cannot speak to there results).
After you have removed the phosphates get your customer on a weekly maintenance of a phosphate preventative and maintain your level below 100ppm. Maintained at these levels the phosphates should not be an issue. It is important that you or your customer is checking the level regularly.
As for the chlorine generator. As someone already set a salt pool is a chlorine pool. Just like any chlorine pool where you combatting something. It is necessary to increase the chlorine level to compensate. Most pools with a phosphate level over 500ppm will not get a good chlorine reading. With salt systems increase the output while the phosphates are being treated or use a granular chlorine if increasing the output does not work. I always have my customers clean there cell after treating a high phosphate content.
As with anything just because they have phosphates does not mean that that is the only problem. Do not oversell getting rid of phosphates as the end to there problems and continue to have the customers use a quad 60 algaecide on weekly basis.
PS.
Phosphate removers are not algae killers!
Algae does feed on phosphates, but it feeds on many other nutrients. And it can store phosphates, the way people store fat. So if you remove the phosphates, algae will feed on other nutrients and use their stored phosphates until the water is replenished with more phosphates.
I had a pool route of 150 customers in the mid-90s -- before all the phosphate talk -- and they were all beautiful.
With your pools that are "eating" chlorine, you may have a a chlorine demand situation and the phosphate level may only be a small part of the problem.
There is an issue with phosphates in salt chlorinated pools. Give Biolab's chem techs a call during business hours (Atlanta time) for more information on that.
Phosphate removal was in its infancy then and the one product available was not very usefull with 300 pools and 5.5 million gals. of water. phosphates will hurt your wallet more than they will hurt you. Get rid of the phosphates and your chlorine consumption will go way down. I think you will be pleased with the improvement in water clarity too.
There are nitrate test strips now that make testing very easy and convenient. Do this before treating for phosphates. The only way to remove nitrate is to drain the pool so if you need to treat for both, go after the nitrate first. You may suspect which pools these are already. They will be your "pools from ...."
I don't believe salt is going to make any difference at all. Maybe someone else can help us answer that.